How to Regulate Your Nervous System & Cultivate Your Inner Badass w/ Erica Bonham
Kylie Larson:
Hello, and welcome back to Far From Perfect. I am your host, Kylie Larson. Today I had the joy and the pleasure of sitting down with a dear friend of mine, Erica Bonham. Erica is a certified EMDR clinician, consultant and trainer and a coach. She's a licensed professional counselor in the state of Colorado, and she aspires to be a catalyst for change, justice, growth, evolution, and all around badassery. Believe me when I say she is a badass herself, and it was so great to connect with her on this episode. What I am learning through my own journey and speaking with other professionals in this arena, whether it's a therapist, a nutrition coach, a hormonal expert, we need to learn how to regulate our nervous systems. Once we do, that is the key, you guys. It's not necessarily just a diet.
It is not about just going to therapy one hour a month or however often you go, but having the tools to bring yourself back into regulation before you walk into something, after you come out of something, just any time. Erica talks to us about what is nervous system regulation, what knocks us off kilter, what disregulates us, and how can we bring ourself back into regulation? It's a very hands-on and practical episode, meaning you're going to walk away with some tools. We talk about her own journey with ketamine therapy also, and also how it helped her stop drinking.
I work with a lot of people who they'd love to cut back on alcohol, but for some reason they can't. Well, maybe it's not you. Maybe it has something to do with your nervous system. Anyway, and then she also shares with us her program, which I'm currently going through, How to Cultivate Your Inner Badass, and it is fantastic. Unfortunately, a really timely episode based on events that have happened in the states here in the last two weeks. But this is one of those things, you guys, that I don't even say this. This is not, what's the word I'm looking for? I'm not exaggerating. This could save us. It could save us from ourselves. It could save the world, this nervous system regulation, so enjoy. Welcome back to Far From Perfect everyone. Today, we are speaking with Erica Bonham of AVOS Counseling. She's actually been on the show, remember back in 2020?
Erica Bonham:
In the middle of the madness, yes.
Kylie Larson:
That's what we talked about. We talked about the madness.
Erica Bonham:
Totally. Yeah.
Kylie Larson:
Oh, my gosh. Today, we're going to have a slightly different conversation, but still regarding mental health and on this topic of nervous system regulation. The way I see it and what I've been told and observe from other therapists is, if we can master this, we are going to be in a pretty good shape. Before we dive into that, though, can you just, welcome to the show and give us a little bit-
Erica Bonham:
Thank you.
Kylie Larson:
... about your background?
Erica Bonham:
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to see your face and be on here. I've been in counseling field for about 14 years, and I am a trained EMDR trainer and consultant. EMDR is, it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It's a pretty evidence-based trauma protocol treatment. Trauma is my jam, trauma recovery and really helping people move and digest traumatic experiences. What we're understanding about what trauma actually is, is yes, it's big T, abuse and car accidents and war and all of those things that we traditionally think of as traumatic, but it's also those little T things that the lack of attunement, the lack of emotional connection. We'll talk a little bit more, I think, about that today because that is so key in terms of our nervous system regulation. Really being attuned to and being understood emotionally and held space for is actually how we learn to regulate our nervous systems.
Kylie Larson:
Oh, wow.
Erica Bonham:
I think that's a missing experience for most of us in some way. It's a missing experience for my kids, right?
Kylie Larson:
Yeah. Right.
Erica Bonham:
'Cause not all the time, I certainly try to attune to them and regulate them, but I'm human. When they're throwing a tantrum about not having blueberry cream cheese in the refrigerator, I'm like, "What? I go to what?" I go into the whole starving kids in Africa thing. I'm like, "What? Just deal with it!" Instead of, "I understand you're disappointed," which is also okay, because we can't always expect other people in our lives to be completely regulated all of the time.
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
Through attunement and through connection and through having somebody be able to sit in the pain with you is actually how we digest emotion, how our nervous systems learn to strengthen and tolerate stress and big feelings and adversity.
Kylie Larson:
We will talk about your course, but I was just listening to it, and you were talking about strengthening our nervous system. I love that because you used the example of training it, putting in the reps-
Erica Bonham:
Yes.
Kylie Larson:
... and I had never thought of it like that. We do want to experience these situations so that we can recover from them and learn how to deal with them.
Erica Bonham:
Yes. I definitely want to give credit where credit is due. I actually learned that term from Resmaa Menakem who wrote My Grandmother's Hands, and he really talks about racialized trauma, which is, we could do a whole show on that. Really getting in your nervous system reps. He talks about it in terms of white folks, when we are dealing with building our resiliency, to be able to move through white supremacy and tolerate difficult conversations of race, you need to get a rep in. You need to, "Oh, somebody said something and you didn't say that thing." You didn't say, "Hey, that's not cool for you to say that," and you regret it. How do you visualize redoing that and get a nervous system rep in? I want to give him credit for that, but it certainly can be used in all forms of trauma, and I really encourage people ...
I'm sure you talk about visualization and seeing yourself do something, but I would actually invite folks to take it even deeper and what I would call a somatic visualization. If you're about to enter into a difficult conversation, if you're going to give somebody some feedback or set a boundary or say, "Hey, this is something that really hurt my feelings," or whatever it is, if you're going to have a difficult conversation or if you're going to go into a difficult situation, practicing how you want to feel in your body, it's going to get way deeper than you just saying, "I am strong. I am worthy, my needs matter, blah, blah, blah."
If we're just doing those what I call self-affirmationing yourself to death, you're really staying in your frontal lobes. You're staying in your thinking brain and your vagus nerve, and so when we're talking about nervous system regulation, we really need to talk about the polyvagal system and the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve runs from your brainstem to your gut, and it is in charge of 75, 80% of nervous system regulation. It's in charge of heart rate regulation, it's in charge of digestion, it's in charge of insulin regulation. It plays a role in so many different nervous system regulation things that if we are just staying in thinking, if we are just staying in self-affirmation from this thinking thing ... Am I allowed to cuss on your podcast?
Kylie Larson:
Oh, yeah. All the words, yes. Say that
Erica Bonham:
Trauma doesn't give a shit what you know. I have read all the parenting books, Kylie, I know all of the effective communication strategies, and when I'm activated, it doesn't fucking matter.
Kylie Larson:
No.
Erica Bonham:
Right? It doesn't matter what we know. My vagus nerve doesn't connect to my frontal lobes just like your vagus nerve doesn't connect to your frontal lobes. It doesn't matter what we know, we have to bring in the body if we are going to heal our nervous systems.
Kylie Larson:
That is one of the things I just was listening to you say in your course, we can't take this top-down approach, it needs to be a bottom-up. Can you give me an example of what that looks like? Is it just trying to feel the way I want to feel when I tell this person, "Hey, this boundary, you can't text me after eight o'clock anymore?" Or whatever-
Erica Bonham:
Right.
Kylie Larson:
What does that look like?
Erica Bonham:
Yeah. I think it is multifaceted. I think moving your body in a way that feels intuitively empowering for you is really good. We can talk about some strategies that help, even just, it's hard to do it with just audio, but putting the opposite hand under your ribcage and then twisting in the opposite direction. If you were to put your right hand on your left ribcage and then twist to your right, that's going to break up some of that stagnant energy in your gut. If you're looking behind you in the twist, bad shit happens from behind us. If you think about how our brains evolved, we got chased from behind. Bad stuff happens from behind us. If we are looking back and you're actually taking in the visual cues that nothing is coming for you and then you're bringing your awareness to the back body like, "No sharp objects are coming here," feeling the safety of the present moment, you'll feel like ... When I do that, I actually feel my gut releasing a little bit, and so twisting, rolling out your joints is a really good one.
Rolling out your joints or massaging your joints actually stimulates propioception, which is our orienting response in our brain. Pushing your feet on the ground is a really good one. The list of nervous system regulation is infinite. Going for a walk, paying attention to what you see here, smell, taste, touch, cold water on the face is a nervous system reset, any kind of twisting. I would play with what your body responds to, but it has to be in the body. Then my other favorite saying is, if you want to heal from trauma or if you want to heal from your nervous system, the willingness to get a little weird is going to help you. Shaking, a willingness to shake or lion's breath, like, "Oh," is really, really helpful, and we are a society that is obsessed with thinking. Even the therapy industry is like, CBT, CBT, cognitive behavioral," and CBT is helpful. I would say that it is insufficient when it comes to nervous system regulation because we are not going to solve neurosis with more neurosis.
Kylie Larson:
Exactly. I always say, "I'm too smart for that," because I'll outsmart myself so I won't ever change.
Erica Bonham:
Totally.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
That's right.
Kylie Larson:
As I'm thinking about this, and I think about our current lifestyles, it's like, no wonder we sit all day long. We're not moving our bodies, we're not stimulating our vagus nerve. It's like no wonder everyone's an anxious mess.
Erica Bonham:
Totally. We're thinking all the time, and our attention is the biggest commodity out there.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
If we can bring our focus to our internal world a little bit, and we actually show up regulated, if you think about a regulated nervous system in the face of this divided country, in the face of all of the global warming, even if we're talking about collective issues, if we could regulate our collective nervous system, we might actually be able to make some progress. If we're regulated, then we can actually be in our frontal lobe. Our frontal lobe is the part of our brain that can have attuned communication, that can have disagreement while still maintaining connection, that can have nuanced thinking that we can hold both and thinking. The limbic system, the brainstem, the fight or fight is good, bad, safe, not safe, go.
Kylie Larson:
Yep.
Erica Bonham:
Right? "I am right. You are wrong." When we are in that really dogmatic belief system like, "Right, wrong, I'm good, you're bad. This is me, you are other," the limbic system is like, "Yes, I love that."It's like a drug.
Kylie Larson:
Yes.
Erica Bonham:
Like, "Ooh, false certainty. Yes, please." The limbic system's supposed to work like that because if you're being jackknifed on a highway, you don't want nuanced thinking online. You don't want, "Hmm, I wonder if the truck driver's having a bad day?" You want good, safe, bad, go, quick. But if you're having a conversation with your partner-
Kylie Larson:
Yes, that's where I was just thinking.
Erica Bonham:
... or if you're trying to discipline your child, but in a way that still maintains connection, or if you're trying to solve a global crisis, the ability to stay regulated and not reactive and not in flight or fight, that's fundamental.
Kylie Larson:
Interesting, the last two podcasts I've had, they've been about relationships and obviously communication comes up. I can see how if you're trying to talk to your partner about finances or sex or how you parent, going in there disregulated isn't going to get anybody anywhere.
Erica Bonham:
Right. Your protective parts, your reaction is just going to cause your partner's reaction, and you're going to feed off of each other and it's just going to go nowhere. I hear a lot of people that are in couples therapy or whatever, and they'll say something like, "Okay, you need to have a pause button," or, "You need to take a break." They'll try that and it doesn't work because if somebody's like, "Hey, I need to hit pause," usually that's going to trigger somebody else's abandonment stuff.
Kylie Larson:
Oh, that makes sense.
Erica Bonham:
Right?
Kylie Larson:
Uh-huh.
Erica Bonham:
You've got to practice how are you going to regulate your nervous system so that you don't cause harm to each other? Even in your line of work, I was just thinking about our relationship with food and our relationship with our bodies. I would say it's pretty traumatic to live in a society where your worth is in keeping your body small.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
Although I know you want to help people feel strong and you want to help people feel like in a loving relationship with food and in a loving relationship with their bodies, I would say regulating your nervous system is fundamental to that because-
Kylie Larson:
Absolutely.
Erica Bonham:
... if you're ... With any substance, whether it's food or booze or people pleasing or we can be addicted to all kinds of things, including doing and people pleasing and all of that, so if you are in this unhealthy relationship with whatever you are, tech, regulating your nervous system and finding what needs to be healed there, what you're trying to numb, what you're trying to comfort is really key.
Kylie Larson:
Well, I love what you were saying. Everyone's addicted to something.
Erica Bonham:
100%.
Kylie Larson:
I know that's true for myself, and I've been way addicted to other things.
Erica Bonham:
Right.
Kylie Larson:
Again, it's like there's this, it's not magic, it's science. It's like-
Erica Bonham:
Totally.
Kylie Larson:
Okay. If someone's listening like, "What are you talking about? What is a dysregulated nervous system?" Can you explain that?
Erica Bonham:
Sure. We all have a flight, fight, freeze system, and again, we want that. If we are being attacked, we want that system to kick in to either fight back or run or play dead, and, "Maybe they won't see me," kind of thing. Getting into the flight or fight system, that's called the sympathetic nervous system, and actually moving in and out of the sympathetic nervous system and the social engagement system or the ventral vagal system, the social engagement system is the regulated system. It's where we feel joy, it's where we feel calm, it's where we feel present connected. We're like we got this sense that we can be even in the face of some stress.
Ideally, we're going to be moving through a little bit of sympathetic 'cause that moves us. It moves us to study for the test. It moves us to get up and go to work and do the things that are needed to do. We've got to move through sympathetic and back through ventral and resting and sympathetic and resting and sympathetic. If things become overwhelming, then we start to feel panic or rage. Then if it really becomes overwhelming, then we will move into the freeze response, and that's the dorsal vagal system. The freeze response is like, "Whoop, I'm just going to shut this shit down. I am going to feel hopeless." That's where depression lies. It's where we just are like, "I'm just going to cut off from everything I feel.
Kylie Larson:
Is that burnout?
Erica Bonham:
Burnout, yeah. I think, yes. Okay. I think burnout happens in dorsal vagal. It's like we've fried all of our systems and we're just like, we just stop caring. It's like apathy is the only place and numbness and hopelessness is protective. Because it's like, "I'm just going to shut it down." It's the same system that happens when an antelope goes into the freeze response, a predator catches it, and it's like, "I'm going to go get my other lion buddies and we're going to eat you," 'cause the lion thinks that the antelope is dead, but the antelope's actually just in the freeze response.
Then in order to get out of the freeze response, we actually have to move back through the flight or fight. The antelope starts to shake. It's literally like a thawing of the freeze response that's happening in the nervous system. A lot of times when people start looking at these things and they've had to shut it down or cut off from it or dissociate from it and freeze it up, they move through this really big period of being angry or being scared. That's actually a good sign because you're moving back through that sympathetic nervous system so that you can come back into that ventral vagal, that regulated social engagement system.
Kylie Larson:
That's the only way, the only way around is through.
Erica Bonham:
Yeah, exactly. Right.
Kylie Larson:
Where does that fawning fit in? That's something I've recently been reading about.
Erica Bonham:
Yeah, fawning is part of that dorsal vagal. It's almost like a functional freeze response, and it's an attachment response. The freeze response is more of like, "I need to keep myself safe." The fawning is like, "I need to keep myself connected. I need to keep myself in relationship here." Fawning is just like, "I'll just become whatever you want. I'll just say, 'Yes.'" I call that clay. "I'm just going to turn into the clay that you want me to be."
Kylie Larson:
Wow.
Erica Bonham:
If you think about, again, this is why our attachment system is so connected to our nervous system. It's like a layered cake. We can't have safety without connection. We can't have connection without safety. We can't have safety without connection, and so we need attunement. We need connection. We need somebody in our life, especially when we're little and when we're grown too, to be like, "Hey, how are you? How are you actually doing?" if you say, "I'm actually fucking terrible." I'm like, "Yep, I get it." I can just hold you in that pain without, "Well, just look on the bright side!" Or, "No rainbow without rain!" Or, "Everything happens for a reason!" Or, "Give it to God!"
Kylie Larson:
"It could be worse!"
Erica Bonham:
Yeah, like, no, we can't go around it. We have to just be in it. When we're in it, then the system's like, "Okay, I'm seen. I'm held. I'm not in this alone, and that means I am safe and I can do it." so many parents are like, "Oh, you're sad, here's a cookie," or, "Let me take you out of it," or, "Let me fix it for you," rather than just sitting with our kids on the bench of being sad or on the bench of being angry, and like, "I'm here. I believe you. I'm really glad you're talking to me about this."
Kylie Larson:
Okay. As we're looking for this person that can hold that space for us, is this something we should be expecting from our partners, from our friends, or is this something where I am seeking out a therapist, a counselor?
Erica Bonham:
I think it's both/and. I don't think you can expect your friends and your partner to be the level of attunement that a therapist is, because a therapist really is there to attune to you. What is happening in therapy is hopefully your therapist's nervous system is a bit stronger, has more reps in it, and that you then are regulating to that therapist's nervous system. Your nervous system is attuning and regulating to the therapist. We have a saying, "The strongest nervous system in the room is going to win," meaning, "If your super dysregulated as the client and your nervous system is stronger than mine, then I'll get wrapped up in your anxiety. But if I can just be regulated and grounded, then hopefully your nervous system will actually start to attune to me and start to recalibrate itself."
Kylie Larson:
This is so interesting 'cause I was just thinking about, so some people who I know and in my life, their energy is so powerful that they shift to the room like, if they're happy, you're happy. But if they are not happy, you are not happy either.
Erica Bonham:
That's right. If you do have a powerful nervous system, you have a lot of responsibility with that. Right?
Kylie Larson:
Mm-hmm.
Erica Bonham:
I would say I am definitely the nervous system regulator of my family. If I'm irritable, ooh, everybody feels it.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
I think I have to be really mindful of that because you do affect people.
Kylie Larson:
I was just thinking-
Erica Bonham:
I would say, yeah, you want the people that are in your first ring, in your inner circle to be able to do some of this with you, to be able to not just try to make you look on the bright side, or not try to rescue you out of it, or not get super dysregulated or make it about them or whatever. I do think you want your first ring people, at least one to three people that you can go to with your deepest and darkest and they can be in this with you.
Kylie Larson:
Then that brings up this topic of loneliness and how people sometimes feel so isolated. What a scary place to be in because you're out there on that island all by yourself.
Erica Bonham:
Totally. Really, if we're looking at this as a collective issue, we as a country are really shitty at community and at collective holding of pain. Even with the pandemic, not that it's over, but we have really never collectively grieved. We are so devoid of community. I think because we have this collective value of individualism, which has its beauty, we have this value of following your dreams and following your desires and being your unique special sauce and flavor in the world, and that is beautiful, and it might be overdeveloped. We lose this sense of collectively supporting each other. I think in that vacuum of connection is where we get conspiracy theory and is where we get this super divided state because we're just such in limbic system that we're fueling our flight or fight.
Kylie Larson:
It's going to take a long time, but what is the first step? I'm assuming, my I thinking is, "Okay, I'm going to take responsibility for me and what I can do."
Erica Bonham:
That's right. That's all you can do. I think all is small, small is all. When we heal our nervous systems on an individual level, that's going to ripple out. You're going to show up differently with your kids. You're going to show up differently with your partner. Even if your partner's not doing work, you're not going to engage with them in the same way. Relationships are like a drumbeat. One person's playing, and the other person's playing, and if you're hitting the beat, you're like, "I'm not doing this with you," and the other person's still trying to drum, it's going to change.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
You're like, "I'm not going to do this with you. I'm going to step back and when you can speak to me in a regulated state, I'll be here for it, but I'm not going to play this game with you anymore." If we start setting boundaries with people or like, "You can't talk to me like that anymore. I can maintain your dignity and I can show up in a regulated state, and I'm not going to do this with you," people are going to find that they're going to change. I've been thinking about this too with heterosexual relationships. I have so many women healing and they're single and they're like, "Where are the conscious dudes out there?" If I can talk to the cisgendered, heterosexual male folk, get in here, fellas.
Kylie Larson:
I know. That is why I thank my lucky stars, you know my husband, I don't know how well you know him, but I have to really sing his praises because he gets it.
Erica Bonham:
Yeah.
Kylie Larson:
He's the one telling me, "I can't talk to you when you're like this right now. Come back to you when you're regulated." Right?
Erica Bonham:
Yeah. Right.
Kylie Larson:
He does the work, but he's a rare breed. I'm like, "Pat, tell your friends."
Erica Bonham:
Right.
Kylie Larson:
"Get in on this."
Erica Bonham:
Again, it's not your fault, fellas.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah. Right.
Erica Bonham:
You just been swimming in this soup as well-
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
... and welcome to the party. None of this shit is our fault. You think my survivors of childhood sexual trauma that are paying thousands of dollars for therapy, you think that's fair? That's the nature of this. It's like it's not your fault and you're the only one.
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
Even if your perpetrator comes back and is like, "I'm so sorry. I'm going to turn myself in. I am going to try to get some help around this," the trauma is still yours and it is in your body. You're the only one that can walk the path. I think a both/and approach, it's like only you can do it and you can't do it alone.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah. No, there's no way we could have the tools.
Erica Bonham:
Again, it doesn't matter what we know. I have to go to my therapist and she has to say the same shit to me. It's not about even what she says, it's about the attunement and my nervous system being held and attuned to and my pain being witnessed. Again, this isn't just me trying to be smushy, fluffy therapist, like, "Oh, we all just need love." Yes, we do, but there's science to that, because what happens in the nervous system when we are attuned to when are held, even if we're being ... said no, Even if I'm showing up with my kids, "No, you can't have a graham cracker for dinner. I love you. I know it's disappointing," and I got to hold this no with you, like, "I can be with you in it even if I'm saying no."
When we have that experience, then our nervous system gets a little stronger and we're like, "Okay, I don't have to carry this. I don't have to carry this stress or this trauma. I can digest and release it and it can actually move through, and then I've got this clear space for whatever the hell I want to do." Then it's like, "Well, okay, who am I without all this trauma? What do I actually want to fill my time and my life up with? Who do I actually want to be in my life if I'm not just anxiously attaching to people that actually cause me harm?"
Kylie Larson:
That sounds to me, it sounds so free. There's so much freedom there once you go through it.
Erica Bonham:
Exactly. Oh, that is the experience. There is a reason that people don't do this work because it is freaking hard. It is walking through the center of the fire, but when it's done correctly, it's not re-traumatizing for your system. You're not just going back and reliving the past, you're actually giving your system the opportunity to access how it's currently stored in the present moment in your body and allowing that to release and digest. Then on the other side of that is liberation. You're like, "Oh, I'm unhooked." Right?
Kylie Larson:
Mm-hmm.
Erica Bonham:
I really like the metaphor of a kaleidoscope. I don't know. I have this both/and. I believe all things can be healed, and I think being human is a constant unfolding process. I don't like this idea of healed land.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah, we're not...
Erica Bonham:
"I have arrived!"
Kylie Larson:
Yeah, no, it's like-
Erica Bonham:
"I'm done! I'm enlightened!"
Kylie Larson:
Like in the office, "I declare bankruptcy!" That's not how it works.
Erica Bonham:
Right. I like this idea of a kaleidoscope where you're like, "Okay, this certain pattern of colors isn't working for me anymore, so I'm going to compost that. I'm going to shed that what no longer serves me," Then I unfold into this new kaleidoscope of colors and like, "This is the version of me now." Then that skin's going to not start to work the same anymore, and we are in the next evolution. Some people take that as, "Oh, it sounds exhausting. I'm never done? What do you mean I'm never done?" Then we've got to jump into another, that dialectic that both/and thinking of, "You are enough. You are lovable. You are divinely connected," should you believe that. Even from a secular perspective, "You are part of this web of life just as you are right now. You are enough right now. You are lovable right now. That is 100% true. Full stop, pause. You can and you want to evolve and change and grow, and don't live in the self-help section. You got to rest."
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
Go roller skating. Go have fun.
Kylie Larson:
Yes.
Erica Bonham:
Play.
Kylie Larson:
Yes, and that'll help all this.
Erica Bonham:
Exactly, that's part of it. Rest, just like in training, rest is an action step. Rest is needed. If we are just grinding and working all of the time, it's not going to work actually. In fact, that's probably part of the trauma response.
Kylie Larson:
Yes, and actually-
Erica Bonham:
Pushng through.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah. I actually experienced that myself, oh, maybe last year. And I was like, "I got to change the books I'm reading." I was like, "I can't handle this anymore. This is-
Erica Bonham:
Yeah.
Kylie Larson:
I picked up a David Sedaris book. I was like, "I need to laugh. I need to have some fun."
Erica Bonham:
Hold on. I know. Yeah.
Kylie Larson:
It's like, "Shut up, people."
Erica Bonham:
Exactly. "Enough." Actually, there's an Einstein quote, and I'm going to mess it up, but it's something, and of course, it's male oriented, but it's like, "There comes a time in a man's life ... " Well, we're just going to change it because, "There comes a time in a woman's life or a person's life, let's say, that taking on another person's ideas is no longer helpful. He must synthesize his own ideas in the world." I feel like once you get it, it's not that you don't have anything else to learn, but there comes a time where it's like, "Okay, enough with the info."
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
"There's more thinking."
Kylie Larson:
Look, everyone's saying the same thing anyway, so right.
Erica Bonham:
Enough, I got to digest this. What else occurs to me is the importance, and I know I'm feeling it even just right now 'cause you and I are both such energetic, fast-talking-
Kylie Larson:
I know.
Erica Bonham:
... people, like pausing, just pausing and check how you're doing like, "How am I actually feeling in my body?" Even our energy together feels very buzzy, and I love that, and just to notice it, to have awareness of it. I can feel vibration in my arms, and I can feel my heart beating and some butterflies in my stomach and some activation in my jaw and think my brain is going, going, going. Just pausing and checking your energy, checking your physical body, checking how you're doing emotionally and just acknowledging it, especially when something good is happening too. If something really beautiful and good is happening, pause, take it in. What are the images? What do you see? What do you taste? What do you smell? How does your body feel? Let your brain take that because your brain is evolved to keep you safe, not happy.
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
Your brain is there to pay attention to the dangerous and negative things, and so you have to hack it to focus on what is safe, to focus on what is beautiful, to focus on what actually replenishes your system. That is also a nervous system rep.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah. I see that all the time. Of course, people, they only see what they have left to do or how far away from perfect they are, forgetting the fact that they've made all these changes and they're in a so much better spot than they were six, nine months ago-
Erica Bonham:
Totally.
Kylie Larson:
... and it's always that next place to go. I love that advice.
Erica Bonham:
Yeah. Celebration is really underdeveloped in a trauma-organized nervous system. In a nervous system that's organized around protection, good enoughness, celebration, play, silliness gets lost because it's only about safety. But really, and again, this is Resmaa Menakem's words, "What is primary in a human's system is joy, is compassion, connection, curiosity, clarity, contentment," and then the world happens. Right?
Kylie Larson:
Yes.
Erica Bonham:
It's hard to be human. We organize around protection and our system, it thwarts that in the name of safety. That's secondary, but it feels like it's who you are. It feels like the truth. It feels like it's your personality. I would just like an invitation to hold that out. It's like, "Is that really who you are, or is that what happened to you and what your system did to survive and what your system did to keep you safe and adapt?"
Kylie Larson:
Well, as you're talking about allowing these things to move through our bodies, I know you love to dance.
Erica Bonham:
Totally.
Kylie Larson:
I also love to dance. I'm not a good dancer, but I've started taking these dance classes-
Erica Bonham:
Oh, fun.
Kylie Larson:
... one that you would absolutely love, this contemporary and I'm like, "This was going to save the world." I honestly feel like-
Erica Bonham:
Yes.
Kylie Larson:
... dance will save the world. I feel like it's where we're at-
Erica Bonham:
100%.
Kylie Larson:
Can you just talk about the benefits of dance? I know it sounds like a silly question, but I honestly think it's a missing link.
Erica Bonham:
Totally. Yeah. This is roller skating for me. Put on some Madonna and some prints and my glowy roller skates, and it is a spiritual experience for me.
Kylie Larson:
Yes.
Erica Bonham:
Right? But yeah, dancing, moving, and again, as a society, we don't collectively move. We don't collectively dance anymore except for maybe dance clubs and then it's like booze filled usually-
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
But as a spiritual practice, as a collective healing practice, we don't sing together very much. We don't dance together very much. It's all very performative and perfection oriented rather than, "I'm just going to move with you as this way of connection and healing and moving things through," and I love that. I love-
Kylie Larson:
Have you ever gone to that aesthetic dance?
Erica Bonham:
I have not, actually. It is on my list. I am still working through some trauma, some like cynicism, like, "Ugh."
Kylie Larson:
No, trust me, I'm right there with you.
Erica Bonham:
I know.
Kylie Larson:
I'm like, "Kylie, you're the weird one here. Leave your-
Erica Bonham:
I know.
Kylie Larson:
... judge-y your pants at the door 'cause you're the weird here."
Erica Bonham:
Like I said, if it was Prince and Madonna, I'd be all in.
Kylie Larson:
I know. I know.
Erica Bonham:
Whatever, do your thing.
Kylie Larson:
I know-
Erica Bonham:
Whatever floats your boat.
Kylie Larson:
That is why this contemporary class is like, to me, it's like, I don't know, it's like therapy-
Erica Bonham:
I love that.
Kylie Larson:
The little guy that teaches that, I call him a little kid because he is in his 20s, unless you're 40, you're an adult. You're not an adult yet.
Erica Bonham:
Right.
Kylie Larson:
I can tell his mom is a therapist because of the way that he speaks.
Erica Bonham:
Right.
Kylie Larson:
It's just like, he's like, "The nice thing about contemporary is there's not a place to get." He's just speaking our language. I don't think this kid knows how brilliant he is.
Erica Bonham:
That's awesome. I love that.
Kylie Larson:
Well, the one thing I want to make sure I ask you about is ketamine therapy, 'cause we were talking about it before I hit record. Can you talk to us about what it is, who it's for, benefits of it, your experience with it, all of that?
Erica Bonham:
Sure. Let me say one more little speech, and then I'll go into ketamine therapy 'cause I think it's important is, the negative beliefs that we have about ourselves. My particular flavor is never enough. "I'm not enough, I'm never doing enough. I'm not enough as a person, blah, blah, blah." But other flavors are, "I'm bad. I'm a piece of shit. My needs don't matter. I'm invisible." Pick your flavor of negative belief. Again, we might know, we might know different, but those beliefs actually were also adaptive and helped us survive. Because if there is a lack of attunement and a lack of connection and you're having these emotional experiences and your parents were like, "Here, have a cookie," or, "Look on the bright side," or, "You're overreacting," or whatever, then you have no other choice but to say, "There's something wrong with me. There's something wrong with me."
Believing that it is about you does two things. It gives you a sense of false power because if it's about you, you can do something to change it, "I'll people please you. I will learn to track your needs grown up and give you what you want. I'll turn into the clay that you want me to be. I'll become a therapist. I have some power if it's about me." That negative belief also allows you to attach to your grown-up because you can then say, "No, they're the grown-up. They're right. They're safe and loving. I'm the problem here," and if we don't attach to our grown-up, we will die. That negative belief, whatever your flavor is is baked in to the survival system. It's baked in to those lower brainstem survival neurological connections. The reason I wanted to say that is because again, we can know, we can self-affirmation, do all the things, but it's so baked into the survival system, it's like if you stop doing that, it feels like you're going to fucking die.
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
"Not believing that I am enough kept me alive." Changing that pattern in my brain on some level in my brain feels like life or death and ketamine and other psychedelics, but what we're seeing with ketamine is that it actually puts a pause in those lower limbic system, neurological connections. It almost shuts down the limbic system, the amygdala system in this way that those frontal lobe connections actually have a fighting chance to integrate. The system's like, "Oh, I can stop doing this and I'm safe? Oh, I actually am enough," and I can believe that because this protective not enough system has had a pause, and everything can integrate and connect in a different way. So ketamine or other psychedelics, it isn't a bypass. You don't just get to put this medicine in your system and you're like, "Woo, I'm cured!" No, but it is a conduit, and it really helps pause those baked-in limbic system neurological connections so that the frontal lobe, the more nuanced communication, the healthier beliefs, and not just thoughts, but body-held beliefs can really start to integrate and click in.
Kylie Larson:
I'm assuming it's not a one-time session.
Erica Bonham:
Usually not. The full protocol of ketamine therapy for people that are highly suicidal, highly depressed, what we would call, quote, unquote, "treatment-resistant depression," there, the protocol is to do eight sessions over the course of four weeks, so two a week. I find that to be quite a lot. I'm more of a once a week, once every two weeks, once a month pace. But again, I think it's where people are in their severity of symptoms. I would say people do find quite a bit of shifting even after one session, but it's going to take some time to unpack all of these layers. Right?
Kylie Larson:
Mm-hmm.
Erica Bonham:
I'll just share my personal experience. I, about two-and-a-half years ago decided that I really needed to unhook from alcohol, and it really felt connected to my attachment wounding. I'm adopted. My mom was awesome, but she was a drinker, and so we would drink together and bond. I had this attachment wound, plus my main attachment was connected to alcohol. Alcohol was like, "Oh, you have a wound? I'm just going to come in and numb that for you." It just felt really deep, and I had done a lot of fricking therapy. I did some ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. I only did three sessions, and it was done for me. It just felt like it really helped me get into those deep attachment wounds in a way that I just couldn't get to. I was processing generational trauma in ketamine space.
My mom was a survivor of abuse, it felt like I was processing what happened to her. It felt like I was processing my own traumas. It felt like I could finally get that baby that had felt abandoned and get her and reclaim her in a way that limbic system protection just wasn't going to let me get to without some support with the medicine. What I say to people is often, there's no words because the trauma doesn't have words. The trauma happens before we have words for it, and so the healing doesn't have words. Generational trauma, we don't have words for that. It's just in our bodies, and so it's hard to explain. It's hard to have words around it. The best way I can describe it is like, "Huh, I don't hate myself anymore. I knew that I wasn't a bad person before, but it's like now I can know it in my bones."
Kylie Larson:
Oh, man, what a gift.
Erica Bonham:
Oh, I'm so grateful. Now that I'm doing it as a therapist, just the shifts that clients are making are so magical. Same way that you feel about dance, I'm like, "This shit is going to change the world." there is a shadow side. There is a lot of stuff that's, people are going to use medicine in a, "I'm just going to take this medicine and hope everything's good, like, okay." But I would rather have it than not take the shadow, because it is just a game changer. It really is.
Kylie Larson:
I was hearing someone say, you brought up that generational trauma, not only is our therapy a gift to ourselves and I think everyone else around us, but we're helping our grandmother that dealt with whatever things we probably don't know about, don't want to know about-
Erica Bonham:
100%.
Kylie Larson:
... but we're carrying around, I'm like, I never thought about it like that. I was like, "I'm really proud of this work that everyone is doing, 'cause-
Erica Bonham:
Totally. Yeah. I think if you have a spiritual practice, and even if you don't, in some ways, I feel like this can land energy is here, and the trauma that never got healed is energy. As you are healing yourself, you are healing your ancestors' pain for sure. That can feel like a big responsibility, but what a gift. Then I think not only does pain and trauma get passed down, but resiliency and beauty and strength get passed down too. We can keep the learning and we can keep the resiliency and the beauty, but we can digest and release and transmute and compost the trauma. That is, again, if we think about that on a collective level, if we were to actually have conversations about racism or about oppression that women still face or oppression that queer people still face in a regulated state without people getting so locked up and defensive and braced, we might actually be able to do this thing. We might actually be able to collectively solve some problems here. I think a regulated nervous system is, it's not optional.
Kylie Larson:
Not an option.
Erica Bonham:
Right?
Kylie Larson:
It's not an option. None of this stuff is going to get done without it.
Erica Bonham:
Right.
Kylie Larson:
Well, this is the perfect segue way for you to talk about your course that I recently just started, Cultivating Your Inner Badass.
Erica Bonham:
Yeah.
Kylie Larson:
Can you talk to us about who exactly is it for, and what all do we get with it? The modules are amazing.
Erica Bonham:
Thank you. It's just been my little baby that has been brewing in my heart and in my soul and in my brain for four years now basically, and I finally just did it. I find myself talking just as I am with you about very similar things to clients, and I wanted to be able to put it out there in a way that was affordable for people. It's not therapy, but if you take the course, you might save yourself the money on therapy because it's those foundational things that I actually have to say to my clients over and over and over again. It's all about how trauma works in the nervous system, how your nervous system works. Really, it's chock-full of somatic resources, nervous system regulation resources.
The modules are cultivating a badass nervous system, cultivating a badass relationship with yourself, with self-worth, cultivating ... Again, we're not talking about self affirmations here. It's like how to really regulate your nervous system so that you can feel more powerful and actually start liking yourself and embracing who you are, your special sauce that you bring to the world, cultivating a healthy relationship with your body. We talk about how things related to our body is so baked in on a trauma level, and then cultivating badass relationships, so boundary setting, how to set effective boundaries while still maintaining connection and attachment, using discernment of who gets your energy and how much of your energy you get.
Kylie Larson:
That's a hard one for me.
Erica Bonham:
Totally. Then the fifth is a hodgepodge of spirituality. I talk a little bit about the trauma of the dominant culture and white supremacy values. I talk about spiritual bypassing and spiritual trauma. I believe those things really get in the way of our collective healing and community, which is needed for our nervous system, cultivating a higher sense of purpose, community, reconnecting with your creativity. It's just all the things that I say to clients all the time, all the resources and skills and tools that I offer all the time, and you get it all. The course itself is an online self-paced course that you engage in or clients engage in on their own time. Then I'm doing twice-a-month coaching calls where you can come and ask questions and get some support, workshop an issue, you have access to me. It's the first Friday and the third Saturday of every month. Then eventually the Saturdays I'm going to hand off to my lead coach, but as it's building, I'm going to be that person for the first few months. We'll see.
Kylie Larson:
It's such a great resource. You said the word coaching, and I just want to get your take on the difference between therapy and coaching because they are different-
Erica Bonham:
Yes.
Kylie Larson:
... but I would love to hear it from you.
Erica Bonham:
Sure. I wanted to offer coaching so that people from around the nation can access it. The main difference is that therapy is really focused on the past and digesting and psychoanalyzing issues around the past, and coaching is about present moment and future-oriented goals. We are talking about trauma, but we are talking about it in a way that is like, "How is it here now? How is it here now? How do we help you actually move through it?" It might be that you really do need to find a therapist, an EMDR therapist or a trauma-trained therapist to really help you digest what has happened in the past. This will be a great support or a beginning phase of getting the foundations of nervous system and resourcing and having a basic understanding of all of this. It could be a great beginner place. It could be also a great supportive place as you're moving through some trauma work. It's for anyone who feels like they've got some shit to digest or that they-
Kylie Larson:
So everyone.
Erica Bonham:
So everyone. I would say if you are actively involved in the Proud Boys, I'm probably not your gal.
Kylie Larson:
You need not apply.
Erica Bonham:
We're an actively pro-queer, pro-trans, pro-choice, pro people of color, anti-racist organization. If you want to unpack some patriarchy and white supremacy, come on in.
Kylie Larson:
Oh, my God. There is this account on Instagram, and it's called Secretly Woke Southern Men, and it is so funny.
Erica Bonham:
Yes. They are so good. I love them. I love them so much.
Kylie Larson:
Well, where can we find you?
Erica Bonham:
So the course is at cultivateyourinnerbadass.com.
Kylie Larson:
Okay.
Erica Bonham:
That's actually a really funny story. I think I have some ADHD, Kylie, because I was like, "Darn it, I really want that URL, cultivateyourinnerbadass.com, but it's taken." Then a month later, I was like, "Wait a minute, I think that's my URL. I think I own that," 'cause I had started a blog years ago-
Kylie Larson:
Oh, my God, that's so funny.
Erica Bonham:
I just repurposed it, but I was like, "Wait a minute, that's my ... " Anyway, hilarious the way my brain works. Yes, cultivateyourinnerbadass.com. There's actually a free webinar on that, and it's partially the first module, it's just part of the first module. It's called Cultivate Your Badass Nervous System. There's more in module one in the course than in the webinar, but you can get a feel for my vibe and the way that the course works with that free webinar. That can be found on the cultivateyourinnerbadass.com.
Kylie Larson:
Well, I can say I think you're fabulous. I know you're an amazing therapist as well, so if anyone is wondering, that's my take on you, so-
Erica Bonham:
Thank you.
Kylie Larson:
I have to ask you one more question though, cause you brought it up and I'm dying to know. I feel like everybody now has ADHD, but I want to know from your point of view, do people really have ADHD or is it just a symptom of life now?
Erica Bonham:
Yeah. That is a good fricking question. I do think collectively our brains are looking more like ADHD brains. I think it's a very tender topic as to whether or not we actually chemically have ADHD or if it is a result of not just cell phones, but certainly cell phones and social media really collectively steal our focus. There's actually a great book called Stolen Focus by Johann Hari, and I read half of it.
Kylie Larson:
That sounds about right.
Erica Bonham:
Yeah. I looked at the half of it, I was like, "I got it. I got it."
Kylie Larson:
On brand.
Erica Bonham:
Yeah. Anyway, but our attention, like I said, is the most high commodity that advertisers and that corporations want. If we can hold our attention, that's money. He brings up this point that we can't collectively focus long enough to solve any problems.
Kylie Larson:
Yikes.
Erica Bonham:
Right?
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
I think taking a tech break is a really good idea, but this is a collective problem. It's just like my metal straws and electric car are not going to solve global warming-
Kylie Larson:
Right.
Erica Bonham:
This needs to be a collective agreement, and the focus issue needs to be a collective agreement of how ... I think they did a study that was adults in their forties have about a minute-long focus. They can focus actively for a minute to a minute-and-a-half, kids in the Zillennial generation have about a 30-second-
Kylie Larson:
Oh, my gosh.
Erica Bonham:
... attention span. It's very disturbing. I don't know, with me personally, I look back on it and I'm like, there's certain things that feel pretty ADHD to me, but I wasn't ever hyperactive. I was a very good student, so I'm curious. I'm actually in the process of getting a formal assessment, so I'll let you know.
Kylie Larson:
Let me know, 'cause I honestly think about it also with women in their 40s, there's things going on in our brain-
Erica Bonham:
In our brain, yeah.
Kylie Larson:
... that also I'm like, "Well, why are all my 40-year-old friends now being told they have ADHD? Is it-
Erica Bonham:
Right.
Kylie Larson:
... peri-menopause or ... "
Erica Bonham:
Yes.
Kylie Larson:
I totally
Erica Bonham:
Either way, there are things, nervous system regulation is going to help you with your focus, first of all. Taking a tech break is going to help you with your focus. Actually, funnily enough, getting a big picture, staring at the horizon for two minutes a day actually helps get that big picture focus, which is really going to help with dopamine regulation 'cause ADHD and focus is all about dopamine regulation. If we can regulate our dopamine system, which is hard because we get hits on social media when we out sugar, when we seek out booze, when we any of that stuff, we dysregulate our dopamine system.
We spike it and then it crashes, and then we have to look for more dopamine. Dopamine is all about task switching and focus. If we can regulate our dopamine system, then our focus is going to improve. Even if I do get an ADHD diagnosis, I'm not really too keen on putting Adderall in my body. If I need it, fine. Even if I am going to go that route, I would rather try to do some stuff that can help me in general focus. Seeking out things that can help your general focus is also a good idea, right?
Kylie Larson:
Yeah.
Erica Bonham:
Meditation, yoga, focusing on the breath, big picture horizon, taking a phone break, having scheduled times that you check your email and check your phone, my wife's like listening to this going, "Yeah, uh-huh. She's great at that, not."
Kylie Larson:
No, speaking of this collective, I just like wish it was, "Okay everybody, let's just not be on our phones after 8:00. Can we just all agree you don't text me, I don't text you, we're not posting anything?" 'Cause then we have this FOMO, but, "What if we all said ... " So-
Erica Bonham:
Yeah. Totally. I don't know what the solution is, but it is definitely a collective issue, and I hope we can stay focused long enough to figure out how to collectively solve it.
Kylie Larson:
Well, it starts with dance.
